Green ammonia is decarbonizing food production

REBECCA AHRENS

Alright. So, we're gonna start our story today talking about the Great Poop Wars of the 19th century. Do you remember learning about the Great Poop Wars in history class?

ELIZABETH DEAN

[Laughing] No, I don't think I ever did.

REBECCA

Well, that was clearly an oversight on the part of your history teacher, because these are very interesting wars. Although, I have to confess, nobody actually calls these conflicts, the Great Poop Wars. I'm calling them that for dramatic effect. But what we're talking about are essentially conflicts that arose over the control of guano in the 19th century.

ELIZABETH

Like bird and bat poop?

REBECCA

Yes—in this case, specifically bird poop.

[Intro music]

I’m Rebecca Ahrens.

ELIZABETH

I’m Elizabeth Dean.

REBECCA

And this is Our Industrial Life.

REBECCA

Elizabeth, welcome to the podcast.

ELIZABETH

Thank you, Rebecca.

REBECCA

I want to tell you a story today about green ammonia. What do you know about green ammonia, if anything?

ELIZABETH

Not much at all.

REBECAA

Okay. So you're a blank slate, then.

ELIZABETH

Total blank slate.

REBECCA

Ok, well, so later in the episode I actually want to introduce you to a special guest named Zhenyu, who is going to tell us about small-scale, modular green ammonia production. Zhenyu was actually named one of Forbes 30, under 30 last year, and he's got some very interesting things to say about the future of ammonia and green hydrogen. But before I bring him in, I just want to set a little context so that we can understand how important and cool green ammonia is—or ammonia is in general. Does that sound good?

ELIZABETH

Forbes 30 under 30? That’s really impressive. I’m excited to meet him. But yeah, give me some background first.

The guano wars

REBECCA

So, guano has been used as a kind of natural fertilizer for thousands of years. And what makes it a good fertilizer is that it's very rich in nitrogen, which plants need in order to grow. And actually, all life needs nitrogen. Animals get it from eating plants, or eating other animals that have eaten plants, and plants typically get it from the soil. So starting in roughly the late 1700s, the world population growth rate was starting to increase in a way that hadn't happened before.

So, just to give you kind of a visual or example: it took all of human history until 1800, for us to reach 1 billion humans. So, let's say we start counting around the time when humans started farming, that would mean that it's roughly 12 to 13,000 years to reach 1 billion people. And then after 1800, it took us approximately 100 years to reach 2 billion people.

ELIZABETH

That's crazy.

REBECCA

It's a big jump. So in the 1800s, we had lots and lots of people being born, and therefore lots and lots of very hungry mouths to feed. And one way we were supporting this population growth was with seabird poop. In other words, guano.

ELIZABETH

Interesting choice. [Laughing]

REBECCA

Yes, very interesting choice. Like I said, we've actually known about using seabird guano as a fertilizer for a very long time. For example, there are indications from Spanish colonial documentation that the Inca valued guano so highly, that disturbing seabirds that produced it was punishable by death^[i]. So, you know, this stuff is like gold.

But it was in the 1800s that guano really reached its—you could call it—international superstar status. It was really having its moment, you know?

[Laughing]

And I think there's a pivotal moment that sort of kicked off this trend, which is that in 1813, there was a Cornish chemist by the name of Humphry Davy, who published a book that became an absolute best seller. I mean, this thing was flying off the shelves, whatever those shelves looked like, back in 1800.

ELIZABETH

The book that made bird poop big. OK now I need to know the title of this book.

REBECCA

Okay, so how is this for a click-baity title? The Elements of Agricultural Chemistry.

ELIZABETH

You know, I don’t know what I was expecting. Maybe something like “Golden Guano” or “The Joys of Guano.” But you did say this guy was a chemist not a poet? So, yeah. Straightforward title. Makes sense.

REBECCA

Okay, so this book hits the shelves, farmers start to get wind of the fact that they can use guano as a fertilizer for their crops, which, you know, increases crop yields. And that's great for everybody. So, markets start booming in Europe and America. Guano-pirating became a thing. There were pirates out there on the high seas attacking ships that were importing thousands of tons of guano into Europe, which makes sense, you know, because it’s a very valuable commodity at this time. But, I just find it hilarious to picture pirates boarding ships and being, like, “we're here for your poop!”

ELIZABETH

Do you think they stored it on the poop deck?

REBECCA

I hope they did.

ELIZABETH

Me too.

REBECCA

In any case, it would be a whole new conception of the poop deck.

[Laughing]

Okay, so, in 1856, the United States government passed the Guano Islands Act. Have you heard of this?

ELIZABETH

I have not.

REBECCA

So this is an act which—and this is just, like, so typically American—but essentially the U.S. granted itself the ability to take possession of unclaimed islands of guano. It's basically kind of like a finders-keepers fiat.

And then in 1864, a war broke out between Spain and Peru over Peru's guano-rich islands. I mean, some of these islands had guano reserves that were up to 200 feet deep. So like, you know, it's really a treasure trove of this stuff.

ELIZABETH

Two hundred feet?

REBECCA

Yes. Two hundred feet of pristine, untouched bird droppings, ripe for the taking.

[Laughing]

What do you have to say to that, Elizabeth?

ELIZABETH

[Laughing] Got it. Lots of interest in this Peruvian bird poop.

REBECCA

Yes, lots and lots of interest. And then there was another war, called The War of the Pacific, that started in roughly 1879, between Bolivia, Chile, Peru, over control of various mining and guano-rich areas, and also, you know, due to some taxation and borders disputes[ii]. But all these events kind of constitute what I fondly like to refer to as the Great Poop Wars of the 19th century.

So, you with me so far?

ELIZABETH

I’m with you.

Ammonia production: The Haber-Bosch process

REBECCA

So you know, guano in general was very highly prized. But this this guano that was found in Peru, and these islands off the coast, was particularly… potent, shall we say? And by 1862, Europe was importing literally hundreds of thousands of tons of guano, which is just mind-boggling to me.

So clearly, the world was in a state of guano fever, right? And this essentially continued until around 1909, when a German chemist by the name of Fritz Haber came along and taught the world how to take air, do some, you know, chemistry magic, and turn it into food to feed not just one or two billion people, but eventually many billions of people. No bird poop required.

ELIZABETH

Step in the right direction.

REBECCA

Sounds amazing, right?

ELIZABETH

It does sound amazing.

REBECCA

So, obviously, that's a radical oversimplification that skips a bunch of steps. But that's, in a nutshell, what happens. And I just want to mention as well that Fritz Haber—he's an interesting and complicated, difficult person. Because, in addition to inventing this Haber-Bosch process, which it eventually became known as, he is also generally considered to be the father of chemical warfare, for work that he did to weaponize chlorine gas, which was used to kill tens of thousands of soldiers^[iii]. And his research also led directly to the development of Zyklon B, which, as many people know, the Nazis used during the Holocaust.

He's a difficult person to keep in your mind, because on the one hand, he creates this process that is used to create fertilizer that feeds today, roughly half of the world^[iv]. On the other hand, his research contributes to the development of chemical weapons, which has been used to kill millions of people. So I think it's just kind of an interesting illustration of how the power of science and technology can do incredible harm on the one hand, but it can also be used to do incredible good on the other hand. But maybe that's a subject for another podcast.

Anyway, so to recap, guano makes good fertilizer, in part because of its high nitrogen content, right? But it's a very limited resource. You know, 200-foot-deep guano reserves aside, eventually, we can't keep relying on this stuff alone as our source of fertilizer.

What the Haber-Bosch process does is it allows us to take nitrogen from the air and turn it into a substance called ammonia, which can then be used as fertilizer. And this process of turning nitrogen from the air into ammonia, now, like I said, helps feed half of the population today. So, safe to say, pretty important industrial process. Wouldn't you agree?

ELIZABETH

Absolutely. What a leaps-and-bounds really.

REBECCA

It is. An interesting thing, too, about this process is that there haven't really been improvements on it in the last 100 years. It's so efficient at what it does that nobody has been able to touch it or improve it. But you might be wondering, for example, if we can get nitrogen from the air, why do we have to turn it into ammonia in the first place?

ELIZABETH

I know. I mean, isn’t the air made up of about 78% nitrogen? Why can't we just somehow inject that nitrogen directly into the soil for plants to use?

REBECCA

Right. Seems like a reasonable question. So let me tell you the reason. The reason you can't do that is—it has to do with the chemical structure of nitrogen. Nitrogen in the air is found in the form of N2. In other words, there are two nitrogen atoms that are triply-bonded to one another. And these N2 molecules are basically completely inert. They won't react with things and plants don't have the proper enzymes to be able to break this form of nitrogen down. So, in order for them to use it, the nitrogen first has to be converted into a form that they can actually use. And this process is called nitrogen fixation.

ELIZABETH

Hm. Ok, so, nitrogen fixation: turning nitrogen into a usable form.

REBECCA

Yes, exactly. So, the Haber-Bosch process is one way to do nitrogen fixation. Nitrogen fixation can also happen naturally. For instance, there are certain kinds of bacteria that can break down atmospheric nitrogen or nitrogen that comes in the form of, like, decaying plants and animals and turn it into ammonium ions. Or, there's a second way—and I thought this was kind of cool. Apparently, when lightning strikes, it can also break down molecules in the air into ammonia and nitrate, which then enters the soil through rainfall.

ELIZABETH

Wow. That’s pretty amazing.

REBECCA

But, unfortunately, they're also very slow and produce, you know, relatively small quantities of nitrogen. So, just to give you some perspective, these days we're making on the order of hundreds of millions of kilograms of ammonia every day to keep up with the global demand for nitrogen. And there's just no way that lightning and our little bacteria friends are going to cut it.

ELIZABETH

Poor bacteria. They try.

REBECCA

They try, I know. [Laughing] So, ammonia is one of the simplest forms of fixed nitrogen. In the case of ammonia, you've got one nitrogen atom stuck together with three hydrogen atoms, and then a couple of electrons hanging out together as well.

So we already know where our nitrogen comes from in the Haber-Bosch process, right?

ELIZABETH

Yep—we can get it straight from the air.

Hydrogen production: Steam reformation

REBECCA

But where does that hydrogen come from? This is where the story gets a little tricky. Because traditionally, those hydrogen atoms have come from hydrocarbons, like methane. In other words, fossil fuels.

ELIZABETH

Hmmm…not a great source.

REBECCA

Not great, yeah. Methane, for example, is one carbon atom with four hydrogen atoms stuck to it. So, we can put that methane through a process that's known as steam reformation. And in steam reformation, basically, what you're doing is you mix ultra hot steam with methane, put it under a ton of pressure in the presence of a catalyst. And eventually, you get hydrogen, on the one hand, but on the other hand, you get carbon dioxide.

So the two end products of steam reformation are pure hydrogen…

ELIZABETH

Yay!

REBECCA

Yay, that's what we want. And then…carbon dioxide,

ELIZABETH

Not yay. Boo.

REBECCA

Definitely not yay. Because obviously, we're trying to limit the amount of carbon dioxide that we put into the atmosphere.

ELIZABETH

This is not good, Rebecca. I was very excited about getting food from air, and now I’m very concerned.

REBECCA

And on top of that, to get di-nitrogen from the air to break apart and then react with those hydrogen atoms when we're creating ammonia, you need to jack up the temperature to roughly 500 degrees Celsius, and the pressure to almost 200 times atmospheric.

So, anyway, the energy that's used to create those conditions of super high pressure and temperature, that energy also typically comes from burning fossil fuels—which means that this world-feeding, miraculous Haber-Bosch process uses roughly 1% of the world's total energy production, and emits roughly 2% of the world's carbon dioxide.

ELIZABETH

Wow. That's a lot of emissions for a single process.

REBECCA

Right.Too many. But obviously, we can't just stop making ammonia, right? Because we're not gonna just let half of the global population starve.

ELIZABETH

Certainly not!

Hydrogen production: Electrolysis

REBECCA

So, surely, there has to be somewhere else to get hydrogen, other than from fossil fuels. So do you have a guess where that might be? Think real hard. What has hydrogen in it that we could use?

ELIZABETH

Water?

REBECCA

Water! That's right!

ELIZABETH

Yay! [Laughing]

REBECCA

Exactly. Well done. A+ for the day.

ELIZABETH

Maybe should have paid attention in science class.

REBECCA

Well, clearly you did! H₂O: hydrogen, oxygen, there you go. It's really your history teacher that you should be apologizing to. Well, no, I take that back. Because you didn't learn about these really important historical events. And that is not your fault. That is the fault of our poor education system in this country. But at least we got: water has hydrogen. So we're doing okay.

Anyway, it turns out, it's relatively straightforward to break apart hydrogen and oxygen. The process is called electrolysis. And all you do, on the most basic level, is you stick an anode and a cathode in some water, run a current through it, and bam, you get hydrogen and oxygen, separated^.[v]

Of course, in an industrial setting, there are some other, you know, purification steps and whatnot that you have to go through. But that's essentially what the process is. And the best part is that the byproduct of getting hydrogen from water electrolysis is just plain old oxygen,

But we don't quite have green ammonia yet. Because the final step is to get our electrolysis process and our ammonia-making process running on renewable energy. And this is a little tricky to do. Because, as we know, from our previous episode, on the future of the power grid, one of the problems with renewable energy is that it's intermittent, right? So it's not always available.

But there are ways around this, you know, you can generate the electricity you need and then store the amount that you don't use for use later. And things like batteries. So not an insurmountable challenge. But now we have a way to produce green ammonia.

ELIZABETH

Hmmm

REBECCA

Should I recap the process?

ELIZABETH

Let's recap, Rebecca.

REBECCA

Alright, let's recap. So first, we produce green hydrogen. And there's actually—I don't know if you know this, but—a whole color spectrum of hydrogen, which has to do with how the hydrogen is produced. Kind of a rabbit hole. So, I think that's something that will save for another episode.

But for now, we'll say we produce the green hydrogen, which is hydrogen that we get from water through this electrolysis process using renewable energy. Right? So the green part is not referring to the fact that hydrogen atoms are green, because they're just colorless. It refers to the fact that there's no carbon emissions associated with this.

And then we take our green hydrogen, and we combine it with nitrogen that we got from the air. And then again—using renewable energy to run the process—we smush them together and then—boom—sustainably produced, carbon-free green ammonia. Magic, huh?

ELIZABETH

Green magic.

REBECCA

Green magic. Perfect. [Laughing]

Alright. So now, tell me—honestly—have I persuaded you that on the one hand, ammonia is very critical, and on the other hand, that we need a better way to produce it?

ELIZABETH

Absolutely.

Zhenyu Zhang on green ammonia

REBECCA

Great. So, now that we've learned all this, I think it's time to introduce you to Zhenyu.

ZHENYU ZHANG

Sure, so my name is Zhenyu. Very glad to be here, and I'm the chief technologist at AMMPower.

REBECCA

So I just want to start off by getting a sense of your background. What brought you to green hydrogen, green ammonia? What's compelling to you about it?

ZHENYU

Sure. I started my professional career working as an intern process engineer at an ammonia production plant in China. The plant was making about half a million tons of ammonia per year. The hydrogen needed for the ammonia production process at the time was made by coal gasification.

ELIZABETH

Wait. Coal gasification? I thought you said it was methane reformation.

REBECCA

Yes, so steam methane reformation is a very common way to get the hydrogen. But some places use coal gasification, which is another chemical process, where you use heat and pressure to break down coal into its chemical constituents. It’s basically the same idea as steam methane reformation. The result is called “syngas,” which is a mixture of hydrogen, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide and some other compounds.

ELIZABETH

So—the same problem.

REBECCA

Yes: same problem.

ZHENYU

So it not only emitted tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, but also generated lots of solid waste. I came to the United States and worked on my Ph.D. in chemical engineering at the Colorado School of Mines to study the technology called “catalytic membrane reactors.” The project goal was to more efficiently make ammonia, as well as crack ammonia.

ELIZABETH

Wait. I’m sorry. Did he say, “crack ammonia?”

REBECCA

Yeah, ammonia cracking is a whole ‘nother thing: basically, breaking the ammonia apart to get the hydrogen we put in there back out again.

ELIZABETH

But we worked so hard to get the hydrogen in there. Why would we want to break it out again?

REBECCA

Patience—we will get there.

ZHENYU

And I joined my team at AmmPower since then. We started the company about three years ago.

We need ammonia for so many things, like nitrogen fertilizers to grow crops. Over 50% of nitrogen in our human body actually comes from the industrial ammonia-making process.

ELIZABETH

Wow.

REBECCA

I know. It’s nuts.

ZHENYU

And we also need ammonia when we make things. To give you a few examples, ammonia can function as a nitrating agent in metal processing and in the semiconductor industry as well. Ammonia is also used as a refrigerant in industries like food processing, and de-NOx chemicals in power plants. And, in addition to its existing applications, there's also a growing interest in using ammonia as an alternative fuel source, or hydrogen carrier.

But, unfortunately, there are various problems with the way we're making ammonia and distributing ammonia. The ammonia-production process is very carbon-intensive, because hydrocarbon is used as both the energy source and also the hydrogen source.

REBECCA

That’s a great overview. So, ammonia itself is used in all of these applications: it’s used as a fertilizer, it can also be used as a fuel source in itself, or as a carrier for hydrogen, which is then used as a fuel source, right? You mentioned various manufacturing applications: refrigeration, semi-conductors.

So, maybe this is a good segue into talking about AmmPower. What is the vision of the company? What are you trying to do? And who are AmmPower’s customers—what would they be using your products for?

The IAMM—independent ammonia making machine

ZHENYU

So just a little background on our company. We're headquartered in Toronto, but our manufacturing and R&D center is located just outside of Detroit in Michigan.

So our company has two business focuses. One is as an OEM to provide modular ammonia production equipment that uses electricity and water instead of extracting hydrogen from fossil fuels. We call it the independent ammonia making machine or the IAMM unit^.[vi] The current version can produce ammonia at four metric tons per day.

Another arm of the company functions as a project developer. We synthesize world-class-scale ammonia production projects at a port. In the U.S. we have a project under early-stage development at the port of Corpus Christi in Texas.

So for our IAMM machine, basically, we want to use the IAMM units to reshape how we make and distribute ammonia. Electrifying ammonia production, by extracting hydrogen from the water, cuts that dependence on natural gas. So this can not only reduce the carbon emissions, but also gives more freedom to where an ammonia production plant could be located. We also designed the units to be containerized and modular. So the units could be deployed closer to the ammonia end-users, cutting down the cost for transportation as well as associated carbon emissions.

REBECCA

So can you explain what is different or new about this IAMM machine? I mean, you mentioned a few things, but I just want to highlight because I think it's important.

You talked about it being modular, right? I mean, these are relatively—compared to industrial ammonia production—relatively small machines. And the advantage is that you could have them close to where the actual ammonia is needed. So is the idea that—would a farming operation own one of these machines so that they can produce the ammonia that they need for their fertilizer? Would it be like near a fertilizer production company? Or can you just paint a little picture of what that looks like?

ZHENYU

Sure, certainly. Maybe we can start by picturing the IAMM units a bit better. The IAMM machine has six 40-foot containers. And we basically designed it to be modular so we can assemble it in our Michigan plan and ship it to where the unit will be deployed, minimizing the onsite work that would be required to make this unit operational.

And the unit contains the several pieces, including the hydrogen production part, and nitrogen is separated from the air. And our core technology is the ammonia synthesis loop, where ammonia is made using the incoming hydrogen and nitrogen.

So compared to the conventional process—which in the US mainly uses natural gas as a raw input and at a massive scale to make ammonia through this steam methane reforming process—in our process, the hydrogen is made using electrolysis of water. So it has a different pressure with higher purity. So those processing innovations help us to make the unit more cost-competitive at a lower production scale compared to the commercial process.

There are also many other different aspects of our units. The other one will be the reactor design. At this smaller scale, you face a different set of challenges for gas distribution, the heat management, and other practical items. And we're proud to say that our end-design for the reactor was awarded a utility patent from the USPTO last summer.

ELIZABETH

What’s a USPTO?

REBECCA

It means that their modular green ammonia production machine was awarded a patent by the US patent and trademark office.

ELIZABETH

Oh, fantastic.

ZHENYU

And last but not least, is that we designed our unit to be able to get connected to the renewable power sources. So instead of the traditional processes that uses natural gas supply, which is often very steady, the renewables have inherent variabilities. So you really need the innovations on the system level, as well as equipment level, to tackle those engineering challenges.

Simulations and digital twins

REBECCA

Got it. Okay. Maybe this would be a good place to sort of walk through what the production looks like for this machine. So my understanding is that you currently have a demo unit. And there are plans for or you're in development with, you know, actual units that will then go to market. But take us way back to the beginning. Before you even have the demo unit, what does the process look like for developing a machine like this? And what are the different types of technologies and data? I mean, I assume there's some kind of simulation that has to happen upfront? What does that cycle look like?

ZHENYU

Sure. At the very core of unit designs is your process design, and it’s basically a set of physical laws that you're able to simulate how the physical variables, like temperature and pressure, interact with each other—and so foundational to other derivative processes, like the equipment design, the layout design, and economic analysis.

So we started with the process design, and at the scale of where we can build the demonstration unit to showcase how we control the unit, how we can make ammonia, so they can feel and see the concept. And it's very important at the early stage of development to have the simulation ready, allowing us to perform the process-design validation, without having to spend money to get actually the parts to build the unit.

ELIZABETH

So is he basically saying that they used process simulation tools to design the machine and simulate the chemical processes before they built the demo unit?

REBECCA

Yeah, exactly. So, that’s pretty common in industrial processes—chemical production, that kind of thing—but the thing is, it’s not like you model or simulate the process and build the machine and you’re done. Right? Once the thing is up and running, you really need to gather data to make sure it’s running properly. You know—that the machine is operating correctly.

ELIZABETH

OK that makes sense. You were saying before that the pressure and temperature have to be at the right level for this process to run properly. So I guess they want some way to make sure that’s happening and that everything is hunky-dory there in the machine.

REBECCA

Yes. We need to validate the “hunky-doriness” of the machine.

Alright. So, basically, you want to make sure that the thing is going to work the way you want it to work before you invest the time, the money, the resources to actually build it, right? As much information as you can get about, like, what do the parts specifications need to look like, like, how do things need to be oriented and connected: you want to know that ahead of time, going in to building the project.

ZHENYU

Exactly.

REBECCA

And then what about after the units are built? I mean, I assume that—I guess this is kind of a two-part question—presumably, you're collecting data about how the machine is functioning, right? Like, for instance, with the Haber-Bosch process, it's notoriously, you know, it needs a very high heat and very high pressure. So I assume that you'll need to be collecting data about what the pressure and temperature situation is inside the machine. Probably other factors as well. What does that data collection look like? That's part one.

And then the second part of the question is—I noticed on your website that you mentioned these remote monitoring centers—so is the vision that in the future, when AmmPower has customers who are operating these ammonia production units, that AmmPower will collect that data and help kind of oversee the operation, maybe do, like, scheduled predictive maintenance and make sure everything is running well for the customers? Is that the direction this is heading?

ZHENYU

Sure. Yeah, Rebecca, before we answer your question, I do want to put a note on the Haber-Bosch process. I think there's a common misnomer about the Haber-Bosch process being energy-intensive and inefficient because it operates at a high temperature and pressure.

And in fact, over 90% of energy consumption for any ammonia production process is by the hydrogen production part. So, the Haber-Bosch process, which combines the hydrogen and nitrogen to make ammonia only consumes less than 5% of the overall energy, and is in fact very efficient: somewhere about 90%. So in fact, it typically has a net positive energy output, because that process is exothermic, meaning it makes heat while the ammonia production process happens.

ELIZABETH

Good to know!

ZHENYU

I will say the operations data, in terms of the process variables—like the temperature and pressure—those will be the first-hand indications if the process variables is trending in an alarming direction or we can apply different tools to uncover the underlying relationships that could indicate a possible maintenance event or activity.

So what we do is we not only supply the equipment, but also provide the service to the equipment owners on how to better operate, monitor and service the units. So local data is of course collected through the HMI to give the operators onsite the capability to monitor and control the unit. And data can also be aggregated, recorded, and transmitted safely to other stakeholders, including AmmPower, where we can provide additional assistance.

And it's important to mention that the simulation model we talked about earlier in the design stage will continue to function as a digital twin. In this latter part of the operation for the project, this can really help us when we have the data to be able to apply the function model like the process model within the digital twin and use more advanced analytics and AI technology to help with the operation optimization, preventative maintenance, or other safety aspects as well. So, yeah, there's a lot of work ahead of us, but we want to make this a reliable operation for the customers.

REBECCA

So what Zhenyu is basically saying here is that when they build a unit, the simulation they create before the unit actually goes into production can eventually be used as a digital twin of the machine.

ELIZABETH

OK I’ve heard that before. That’s basically like a digital version or model of the machine, right?

REBECCA

Yeah, it’s a digital representation. But one of the cool things about a digital twin is that it not only shows you a virtual model, you can also see real-time information about how that unit or machine is working. So—what’s the temperature inside the unit right now, that kind of thing.

ZHENYU

We're still in the process with the digital engineering to be able to get to the digital twin stage to support the operation of this unit. But on a high level, it also includes process models or other function models to allow you to apply more techniques to support your operation activities to make sure your equipment is able to run reliably, to have an overall high OEE, to give you the quality of the product you're anticipating.

REBECCA

And if a digital twin is operating as you want it to, you know, in theory, does it ideally kind of allow you to put the two kind of stages—if you want to think about it that way—like the planning/simulation/engineering stage and the operation stage—together, because I would imagine, you haven't said this, but in my mind, probably, there will be, you know, upgrades and advancements that you want to make, you know, down the line. And presumably, the live operations data that tells you about how the existing models are functioning can help you then in, like, the simulation and engineering stage, or the planning stage for newer models or upgrades, or this kind of thing.

ZHENYU

Yes, exactly. The data is, is another form of asset. We can accumulate the experience through this operation of the unit. And the hours accumulated will help us for revising the current unit operation and also for future designs, or future iterations of the product as well.

Ammonia cracking

REBECCA

So one of the other projects that you mentioned that we touched on briefly, but we haven't talked about in depth yet is ammonia cracking. So using ammonia as a way to transport hydrogen because it's easier to transport than hydrogen.

ELIZABETH

Wait, why is it easier to transport ammonia?

REBECCA

Because hydrogen gas is very...diffuse? It’s the opposite of dense, whatever that is. So, if you put hydrogen gas in a tank without condensing it, it takes up a huge amount of space. Like, an unreasonable amount of space.

ZHENYU

Because it's the lightest molecule in the universe.

REBECCA

And so you have to, like put it under a lot of pressure and cool it down to be able to transport it and…

ZHENYU

…to have meaningful density, compress it at several hundred bar or cool it to a cryogenic temperature—it’s extremely challenging.

REBECCA

And there's this issue with, like, hydrogen embrittlement.

ELIZABETH

Embrittlement. Sounds fancy.

REBECCA

It is fancy. It is actually kind of fancy.

So, hydrogen embrittlement basically refers to the fact that hydrogen atoms are teeny teeny teeny tiny, so they have a bad habit of squeezing themselves in between the atoms that make up other materials and compromising their structure. So, if you’re not careful, the hydrogen gas can cause the materials of the tanks you store it in to crack or crumble over time. Because hydrogen atoms are very small and sneaky.

ELIZBETH

Sneaky rascals.

ZHENYU

You can store and transport ammonia under much milder conditions than what you would need for the hydrogen: around 20 degrees Celsius.

REBECCA

And then, at some point, if you want to use that hydrogen, say, as a fuel source, you need to get it back out of the ammonia.

ZHENYU

if you can transport ammonia, but the hydrogen is the actual chemical that's needed, you can use the ammonia cracking technology to give you back the hydrogen.

ELIZABETH

Very cool.

REBECCA

The other thing I wanted to circle back to and just hear more about is: you mentioned that there's a project at the port in Corpus Christi. The idea is that you'd be producing the green ammonia on-site, near this port at Corpus Christi. And then, it's near the port, so essentially it can be loaded onto ships to be taken to different places, but also to be used, for one, as a fuel source in other applications, but also as a fuel source for ships themselves.

ZHENYU

Right, exactly. I think it probably will take us a few years before we see the adoption of the ships using the ammonia as a fuel source. But it won't be too long. It's also a supply issue as well. So we're doing our part to be able to put together the project and producing actually the green ammonia to be available to use for the shipping industry.

I think, in the future, we’ll be seeing more technologies that use ammonia directly to convert that into energy, but at this point, ammonia is currently used as fertilizers. And it's a huge emission source. And we need technologies to be able to decarbonize this sector.

And for its uses as an alternative fuel source, I think it will take time for us to get there. And ammonia is more—very—likely to be used in the maritime industry.

I think it's a good picture to think about all those technologies playing its own role where it's more advantageous in certain applications. I don't think it will be a future where one technology will win it all.

ELIZABETH

So that is our show for today.

REBECCA

Let us know what you think. What do you think about green ammonia? What do you think about it as a way to clean up our food production? But also as potentially an alternative fuel source? I mean, there are so many potential applications. We’d love to hear from you, the audience, what you think about this.

You can email us at our.industrial.life@aveva.com

ELIZABETH

Yes.

REBECCA

And listen and subscribe on any of your preferred podcast platforms. Send us a note if you have topics that you’d like us to cover or guest suggestions.

And we’ll see you next time.